hello. it's thursday. it's 10 o'clock. i'm victoria derbyshire. good morning. an exclusive investigation by this programme has found that british patients have spent millions of pounds atjust one private cancer clinic in germany. it doesn't publish data on the treatments it sells nor what the outcomes for its patients are. she could barely put one foot in front of the other sometimes and for her to take herself away from her boys was heartbreaking but her belief was she was doing this in the short—term for the long—term. one uk doctor has told us some treatments there are unproven and he doesn't know how doctors at the clinic can sleep at night. others said the clinics‘ talk of years of remission in some cases amounted to no

more than false hope. and patients who've died after treatment there still feature on the clinic's website 3s success stories. also today: criminal charges over grenfell may not be brought until 2021, four years after the fire happened costing the lives of 72 people. survivors say they've been left living in limbo. we'll be speaking to a survivor and chair of grenfell united. pupils excluded from school are being sucked into violent crime thanks to a broken support system, that's the warning to theresa may from the mayor of london and police commissioners. the home secretary by himself can't order the chancellor to give him more money. the home secretary can't order the secretary of state to have a public health approach. the prime minister can. and r kelly is back behind bars after failing to pay child support to his ex—wife. it comes hours after he tearfully and angrily denied allegations of sexual abuse in a tv interview.

good morning and welcome to the programme. we are alive until 11 o'clock, as we are each weekday. —— we are live. thank you for your m essa 9 es we are live. thank you for your messages about grenfell tower. matt on twitter says: they want to drag it out so people do determination and orforget. councillor anna rothery on twitter: words cannot convey our disappointment with this decision.

we will continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with you. stay strong, our thoughts & prayers are with you. mairead on twitter: this is an absolute disgrace. it now seems no one will be held to account for the criminal and reckless corruption that caused these cruel deaths. solidarity with the people of grenfell. use the hashtag victorialive. send us an email or text. here's annita with the news. following on from its report yesterday about the rise in the number of people raising money online for private cancer treatment, the victoria derbyshire programme has now discovered that british patients have spent millions of pounds atjust one private cancer clinic in germany. it claims to offer state of the art treatment but the programme's investigation has raised serious questions about some of the medication it offers and the promises it makes. the european union has urged the government to come up with fresh brexit proposals by the end of this week in order to break the deadlock in talks. the chancellor, philip hammond, has warned brexiteers in his own party that voting against the government's withdrawal deal on tuesday would mean entering highly uncertain territory. mr hammond said they ran the risk of moving away from their preferred

option of leaving the eu on time. the mayor of london sadiq khan has joined a dozen police and crime commissioners warning that the system for dealing with young people who are excluded from school is contributing to the knife crime problem. they've written a joint letter to theresa may calling for pupil exclusions to be more tightly regulated. it comes as a man in his 20s has become the latest victim of knife crime in the uk, after being stabbed to death in east london last night. the metropolitan police has launched a murder investigation. there have currently been no arrests. officers investigating the grenfell towerfire in london say criminal charges will not be brought for at least the next two years. the metropolitan police says it would be wrong not to wait until the inquiry into the disaster has concluded, the second phase of which is unlikely to begin before the end of this year. 72 people died in the fire in west london injune 2017. r kelly is back behind bars after a court hearing in chicago over unpaid child support.

the sheriff's office says he will be detained until he pays the full amount he owes — more than $160,000. it came just hours after a tv interview in which he angrily denied allegations of sexual abuse. the singer was charged last month with ten counts of aggravated sexual abuse. facebook‘s head, mark zuckerberg, has said in future the firm won't keep data on users for long periods of time. the social network has come under fire because of the way such information has been used. in a blog, mr zuckerberg said he intended to transform it into what he descibes as a privacy—focused platform. greggs says the value of its sales rose above £1 billion for the first time last year. the company has posted a 15 per cent rise in pre—tax profits to £83 million. greggs credits the fanfare around the launch of its vegan sausage roll for driving a sharp rise in sales.

the manchester miracle in paris as united pull of a stunning 3—1 away win against paris st germain to book their place in the champions league quarter—finals. the video assistant ref helped the team get a late penalty. that's what we do! that is what we do. that is what we do! united mentality! come on, the boys. come on, the boys! get in there! one very happy man! that is a summary of the news. back to you, victoria. it is good to see someone so happy, it really is. this time yesterday we brought you an exclusive report about the extraordinary rise in the number of people raising money online for private cancer treatment. £25 million, we found, just last year.

and as a direct result of our investgation, the biggest crowdfunding site gofundme told us it's going to change its website to point fundraisers in future to scientific research on cancer treatment. today, we bring you part two ofjim's investigation. this programme has found out that british patients have spent millions of pounds atjust one private cancer clinic in germany. it claims to offer state of the art treatment but our investigation has raised serious questions about some of the medication it offers and the promises it makes. one young woman who had treatment there and died last year still features on their website as a success story. here'sjim's report it is, one family told us, a lovely place to be l. the centre in southern germany looks more like a spa resort than a cancer clinic. this is where many british patients come each year, most after a

terminal diagnosis. but clinics like this one come at a very high price. the single stay here can cost tens of thousands of pounds, and some families come not once but - and families come not once but time and time again. what's all this? medication, dose. in 2017, stephen's son was diagnosed with a brain tumour. jaden wasjust 16 son was diagnosed with a brain tumour. jaden was just 16 at the time. he had two operations, but the cancer kept returning. they were told nothing more could be done on the nhs. so the family raised hundreds of thousands for treatment at the centre. getting out there, we hired a camper van. on the thursday night, we put him in a camper van, we drove out there, 12 hours, we get there friday morning at nine o'clock in germany. they started his treatment. at this pointjayden in germany. they started his treatment. at this point jayden was knackered. thumbs up. smile. at the clinic, jayden was given a mix of drugs, some of which were not

licensed for nhs use on brain tumours, including this medicine. research shows it may lead to a small improvement in life expectancy, although the science is farfrom expectancy, although the science is far from settled. they pumped the medicine into jayden, checked him over. he would sleep and on saturday morning, i would give him the other drugs he needed, if they needed any, and about midday we would head back to the uk and get back about sunday lunchtime. then when we get back, i drop the camper van off monday morning. i get to work and then worry about next money is coming from and how we are going to raise that. after around a dozen trips to the clinic, jayden died last summer, aged just 17. stephen is positive about the level of care at the clinic, and doesn't think the treatment bought his son more time, but the costs were huge, eventually hitting more than £250,000, far more

than he initially expected, although he does say the cancer was more complex than first thought. he does say the cancer was more complex than first thoughtm he does say the cancer was more complex than first thought. it is a hell of a lot of money to find. you do think christ! when is it going to stop? it was getting expensive. and the pressure, you think my god! but you have just got to keep going. this clinic is the most high—profile of d oze ns this clinic is the most high—profile of dozens of private cancer in germany. it says it has one cancer doctorfor germany. it says it has one cancer doctor for every two germany. it says it has one cancer doctorfor every two or germany. it says it has one cancer doctor for every two or three patients and a nurse — patient ratio of almost 1—1. doctors there can point to individual success stories and we have spoken to one british man alive five years after terminal british diagnosis who says the hallwang saved his life. but the clinic doesn't publish data on its

treatments or it survival rates, so it is impossible to know for sure whether the results are any better than standard care in the uk. andrea was loyal. she was funny. she was a huge part of my life. claire's best friend andrea was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2016. a single mum with two young boys, she was told she had a year to live. the two friends flew together to germany for treatment at the hallwang. they never promised her a cure but they did believe they could get her into remission, which at best would have given her five years. remission, which at best would have given herfive years. and in those five years, we were not really sure of what could come about. and miracles do happen. other families say doctors at the hallwang seemed very careful to avoid the word cure, but they say phrases like remission and beating cancer are used in ways that doctors in the uk have told us is irresponsible. the hallwang says it is honest about prognosis and it does have the interests of its patients at heart. in a statement it

told us: we never talk about cure, nor do we use phrases like beat it. the medical team consists of oncologists and not sports commentators. but in a marketing video still on the front page of the clinic's website, a british patient can clearly be heard using that phrase. after speaking with the medical team, we decided that they we re very medical team, we decided that they were very positive, and they could work with me to try and beat my cancer. as for andrea, at the hallwang she was given a form of immunothera py. this new hallwang she was given a form of immunotherapy. this new type of drug use is the body's own immune system to destroy tumour cells. she could barely put one foot in front of the other sometimes and for her to take herself away from her boys was heartbreaking. but her belief was she was doing this in the short term for the long term. new immunotherapy

drugs have been shown to extend life ina minority drugs have been shown to extend life in a minority of patients with skin and blood cancers, but pancreatic cancer is much harder to treat. three uk specialists we spoke to said it was extremely unlikely to have much effect, and all said any talk of a five year survival would have been false hope. andrea's friends raised more than £200,000 for her treatment. she had paid for therapy in belfast and made multiple trips to the hallwang, but she died in august 2017, just over a year after she was diagnosed. do you think it was worth her going to that clinic? the outcome was the same. but do i think it was worth it? i couldn't turn round and say it didn't help andrea, but would we do it again? yes. because you don't know. it didn't have any success, and maybe that sounds like i'm contradicting myself, but!

and maybe that sounds like i'm contradicting myself, but i wouldn't wa nt to ta ke contradicting myself, but i wouldn't want to take away hopeful somebody else. when it comes to experimental treatments, patients with a terminal diagnosis may of course be far more willing to take risks, and the nhs has been criticised in the past for being too conservative. but specialists we have spoken to say the drug has not been tested and licensed for that type of cancer, so the chances of it working unlikely to be very low and there is a risk of serious side effects. to be very low and there is a risk of serious side effectslj to be very low and there is a risk of serious side effects. i have one particular patient who went to that clinic and they refused a lot of the conventional treatments over in the uk. they went there and they got a of unusual treatments and it is very sad to see how that happens. i am not sure how the doctors can sleep at night when they give them treatments that are really not proven. i also then received a letter from that clinic. we never really knew what they were getting,

we only got it from the patient, and when they come back with problems we have got to deal with that. hallwang says immunothera py is have got to deal with that. hallwang says immunotherapy is complex are not well understood by other doctors. it claims it says it has treated cancer patients, now in full remission, with drugs that were not licensed to use on that cancer, and it says it can extend the lives of some patients by a year or more and that should be a breakthrough. when you are on this conveyor belt, you are living day by day. and yesterday's programme, we heard from helen. her daughter gemma was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. she made numerous trips to the hallwang with money raised by the actress kate winslet, as well as the family and the public. gemma was given immunotherapy and for a while it seems to work. scans back in the uk showed no sign of the tumours. seems to work. scans back in the uk showed no sign of the tumoursm seems to work. scans back in the uk showed no sign of the tumours. it is so showed no sign of the tumours. it is so mentally, physically and in whatever way you want to describe it in training, going to germany for treatment every three weeks. i thought it was a good time to take a

break. helen said they were told by the hallwang to continue the treatment but funds were getting low and they were worried they might be nothing left if the cancer came back. so they felt there was no choice but to stop their trips to germany. it is unsustainable. you cannot physically carry on or financially carry on doing that for the rest of your life. how could you? how could anybody do that? last summer, another scan showed the cancer had returned, this time in gemma's spine. she died in october. helen is very grateful for the donations and for kate winslet‘s support. she thinks it did give her daughter more time, but looking back, she cannot be sure she did the right thing. it becomes your life. you do not do anything else except get on that plane, have your treatment, rest for three weeks, get back on the plane. that is it.

that's your life. there are no happy times. i do think to myself we should have done the bucket list and spent the last few months of gemma's life with her daughter, trying to be happy and make memories. but it is what it is. it is done now and you can't go back. in the hallwang's website, gemma's case is still being used as a success story. there is no mention of the fact she lost her life five months ago. when people do pass away they should be taken down and not used as marketing material. to use them in a positive manner, which is the only way it can be described, to promote their story and get more people to go, is absolutely wrong. but this clinic is one of many in germany and beyond. new technologies and new ways of funding mean the business of cancer ca re funding mean the business of cancer care is booming, selling hope to patients faced with a frightening diagnosis and a difficult choice. jim reed reporting. athena on twitter says: "i totally

understand the decision to crowdfund for treatment but no data is collected, no evidence base is built, no future patients benefit. we must invest in research and work to change practice for all. i m the ceo of a cancer research charity, and this crowdfunding is having an impact." this emailfrom gerald is quite long. you have provided a balanced perspective on this very complex issue. my daughter elaine spent five months at the hallwang clinic before she sadly passed away at the age of 35, leaving a two—year—old little boy. she had a very rare cancer that couldn't be treated any further in the uk. gerald says this particular clinic catered primarily for brits using crowdfunding on top of their own resources. most of the patients that were there with my daughter are

no longer with us. many families had taken on major financial commitment to fund treatment, and they are left financially challenged as a result. we funded it ourselves that basically used up our savings. if this treatment had continued, we would have struggled to be able to look after her son, who is now with us. look after her son, who is now with us. these clinics are rough and opaque about likely ongoing costs and even more opaque about outcomes. what people don't get is that even if the treatments work, you need to basically continue and if you stop, you will probably die. these clinics are unable to attract wealthy germans, of whom there are many. we only saw one gem that in six months. without crowdfunding, that doesn't really exist in germany, these clinics would probably struggle. —— one german in six months. we haven't spoken about brexit much, so today is your lucky day. the chancellor philip hammond has warned conservative brexiteers to think very,

very carefully about the consequences of voting against theresa may's brexit deal next week. meanwhile, in separate developments, the equality watchdog says it's considering using enforcement powers against the labour party in relation to anti—semitism complaints. our chief political correspondent vicki young is at westminster. brexit first. there is still this jayden and no update on the backstop. there are two things leading to this announcement. the government has been in brussels trying to get some kind of change, trying to get some kind of change, trying to get dozens of mps to change their mind about theresa may's deal, but the talks have not been going well. both sides say they we re been going well. both sides say they were difficult. that is diplomatic language for a massive row. probably. they will say they have had a robust exchange but when they say that things are difficult, you know things are not going well. there is the possibility that when

theresa may hold another vote on her deal on tuesday, nothing will have changed on all of that so there is nothing to show to mps about that backstop, the thing they hate so much. no tweaks may have happened by then. and separately, jeremy corbyn has been meeting with senior tories, tories who want a closer relationship with the eu. it is called various things. no plus plus, common market two, basically staying with a much softer brexit. jeremy corbyn said there could be some kind of agreement around that in parliament, so those two things have led the chancellor, philip hammond, to say to the pro—brexit people and his party, those who are so far not backing theresa may's deal, to think again about it. if the prime minister's deal does not get approved on tuesday, then it is likely the house

of commons will vote to extend the article 50 procedure, to not leave the european union without a deal, and where we go thereafter is highly uncertain. for those people who are passionate about ensuring that we leave the european union on time, it surely must be something they run the risk of us moving away from their preferred course of action if we don't get this deal through on tuesday. the chancellor speaking this morning. and the latest development in the anti—semitism row involving the labour party. bill us in on that. this ongoing row is really causing huge tension in the labour party. the equality and human rights commission has taken the first step towards its legal enforcement process , towards its legal enforcement process, its legal powers against

the labour party. we know they were looking at material that had been handed in to them by thejewish labour movement and by the campaign against anti—semitism. and they say having received a large number of complaints about anti—semitism, they think labour may have unlawfully discriminated against people because of their ethnicity and religious beliefs. our concerns are sufficient for us to consider using our statutory enforcement powers. i understand that what happens next is that they will write to the labour party in the beginning of this process , party in the beginning of this process, who have a certain amount of time to respond to the letter, and the labour party could voluntarily agree to work with them to come up with a plan to change the processes and make it more robust. if labour don't go along with that ona if labour don't go along with that on a voluntary basis, that could lead to a formal investigation into the party. thank you. vicki young reporting. still to come: campaigners have reacted with frustration at news that

criminal charges over the grenfell tower fire may not be we'll speak to one of them. we will speak to the chair of g re nfell we will speak to the chair of grenfell united. and the extraordinary tale of haven who was a 1a—month—old baby in vietnam when she lost her legs in a bomb after her biological parents who were having an affair tried to carry out a family suicide. she was adopted in the us where she took up swimming and she's now a paralympic hopeful. stay tuned for that story. from next week schools will start using lesson material specifically to teach about the dangers of baiting. these groups, often on social media, invite users to share nude pictures, intimate videos or sexual gossip about others. you're only allowed into the group once you've shared something and so they're very hard for parents to monitor. now we can speak to

maithreyi rajeshkumar from childnet which is producing the lesson material. dennis o sullivan is a headteacher who says cases of baiting come to his attention on a monthly basis and its children as young as 12 involved. and carmel glassbrook who works for a helpline which gives advice to people who work with children and encounter cases of baiting. carmel, it's probably worth you explaining again what baiting or bait—out groups are and how it works on instagram and snapchat. sure. we started to notice that behaviour back in 2015, traditionally on instagram accounts. what it will look like is a page, which is normally very clear, what they are doing and their behaviour. it will say something clear like bait—out girls 20 09, for example.

to be accepted into the group, you have got to send an image, and once you have sent it, you are accepted into the group, and then they post all of the photographs once they reach a certain number. because the bait—out pages are easy to manage, once we report then they can be taken down quite effectively. on snapchat it is a bit harder because of the ephemeral nature of the app. what is in it for kids who share nude pictures of themselves? this is the million—dollar question. sex is an interesting behaviour when you look into it. we need to focus on the nonconsensual sharing of the images rather than taking the images in the first place, because that is a real betrayal of trust. it is betraying someone's privacy and that is the kind of behaviour we need to be focusing on more. once someone has voluntarily, willingly, sent a photograph, it is then on some

occasions being used against them? of course, yes. we see that behaviour with adults as well. we see that all the time. what kinds of things see on? do explain. in terms of sexting, someone might be sharing an image within a relationship setting or with a friend, saying do i look good today? that friend or partner may choose to share that image on, whether it is out of revenge, jealousy, maybejust image on, whether it is out of revenge, jealousy, maybe just being proud, and the behaviours are very different. sometimes we see that image being shared without their consent in a way that is used to humiliate and embarrass. what should schools be doing when it comes to talking to kids about baiting? we

really look at this issue as part of a wider pattern of online sexual harassment and it is really important to understand that sexual harassment happens to adults and it happens off—line. we encourage schools to talk positively about what healthy, respectful, consensual relationships look like, whether thatis relationships look like, whether that is with a partner or friends. we see this happening in peer communities and we all know that school can be a difficult place. we look at this issue as sexualised bullying that is taking place.“ you are a 14—year—old girl and you willingly send an naked photo to one of the bait—out groups or your boyfriend, and it gets shared around, you have done that willingly. so what are you saying to people? don't do that? as kamel said, it is really important not to put the blame on the young person. i am just asking what you say to young

people. we say to young people, think about what you are sending to people. we tell them to think about peer pressure and those things, but we want to focus on the wider bystander group. what do you do when you see that picture being shared? do you share it on? do you like it and laugh about it? it is really important for schools to focus on that. what should that student do if a naked photo of someone else is shared with them? we tell young people to tell somebody, whoever it is, an adult that you trust, whether thatis is, an adult that you trust, whether that is a teacher or a parent, an older sibling. anybody that you trust. we often hear from young people that the biggest barrier for them to report is they think they will be blamed and they are too embarrassed. and if we go in and say you will not be blamed and we are here to support you and it is not too late, we can do something about it, really simple things telling them we can come to you, that is

really effective and that is what we do at childnet. dennis, you say that children as young as 12 are doing this. how do you help them? we are usually informed by the recipient of the picture who feels morally outraged by what is going on. what we do if we get the person who sent the picture and we give them some counselling and we talk to their parents and we discussed with them the fact that it used to be called a world wide web and anything you put on the internet can and sometimes will go worldwide. the person that reports it to us will normally say these people have this picture now. we will get those people and we will ta ke we will get those people and we will take the thing off their phones and we always inform the parent and the police, who are inundated with this. it is not an epidemic but it is frightening and it is widespread.

i have got to realise if i do consent you will probably ignore my point of view and give it to whoever you like, so we work with children ina way you like, so we work with children in a way that your organisation to get to get them to see the consequence but to take responsibility, all ininternet usage is about children taking responsibility, because we can't monitor it as parents and teachers, but we have to as soon as we give them phones put in safety measures, pa re ntal controls them phones put in safety measures, parental controls uk talk to children about taking upon and that includes sexting, a child can access a pawn graphic site in two click, we can't control that, we have to get them to understand this is pornography, it isn't real life, there isn't what relationships are about and we have to teach them what relationships responsibility and building your self esteem are about.

a snapchat spokeswoman said: "the exploitation of any member of our community, especially young people, is absolutely unacceptable and a complete breach of both our community guidelines and terms of service. we have a zero—tolerance policy towards nudity or sexually suggestive content involving minors and we go to great lengths to prevent and respond to this type of illegal activity on our platform." do you expect teachers to talk to pupils about the fact it can be a criminal offence to both send and be in possession of explicit sexual images of anyone under age? including boyfriends, friends? we encourage them to talk about the law but to have it within the context of talking about around consent and what that mean, so they understand the law, but they also understand you know how it to build a relationship. it is about when you go into adulthood, you don't stop . what is the best way for parents to discuss something that might be awkward and of a sexual nature with

their 11—year—old, 12—year—old, 15—year—old? their 11—year—old, 12—year—old, 15-year-old? it is really tricky. i think we say to parents, talk regularly with your children about the online use. stories like this are upsetting and worrying but start be the positive. we hear young people saying adults only want to talk about the negative that goes online. to start with positive thing, in terms of awkward tricky conversation, use stories like in the media, distance yourself or your child from that experience but talk about what you would do in that case and say, ok, in that case i would help them, i wouldn'tjudge them, they are not to blame, that kind of thing. it allows the young people to say adult understand, they might not understand what snapchat is but they can help me in some way. understand what snapchat is but they can help me in some waylj understand what snapchat is but they can help me in some way. i don't know if kids watch soaps any more. or maybe something on netflix for example. thank you for coming on the programme. thank

we're going to bring you the extraordinary story of haven shepherd now, who was just a 1a—month—old baby in vietnam when she lost her legs in a bomb explosion. she was a child born after two people had an affair. because her bioloigcal mum and biological dad couldn't be together, they strapped bombs to themselves, held haven, their daughter and tried to carry out a family suicide. here's her story. i was the miracle child. i survived something so traumatic that i wasn't supposed to live. i lost my legs when i was 1a months old and the story that i know is that my parents had an affair and had me, and my biological dad couldn't be with my biological mother, so they decided to commit a family suicide. they strapped bombs onto themselves and held me, and the bomb was around my legs, and they blew me up.

i definitely see that circumstance as a real reason why you shouldn'tjust be moping around your whole life. with swimming, you cannot swim with your prosthetic legs on, so when i can take off my legs that means i have two hours to not be in my legs, not to be really uncomfortable. it makes me feel really empowered. i was adopted when i was 20 months old. i don't remember a lot about living in vietnam. every adopted kid has a gotcha date. it represents the day the family chose you into their family. i have two brothers and four

sisters, and 13 nieces and nephews. i think, after i made my first emerging time, that's for the paralympics, that is how they track you, that is when you get a little bit more serious. that is when it all started to come together. i went to italy over the summer and i got to swim with the us paralympic swimming, and i got to wear the usa across my cap. i took a picture over it and i was like, "it's real, "it's real." i hope, for my swimming career, i get to go to the 2020 paralympics. being in tokyo for the usa would be the peak of my life, honestly.

how amazing was haven? a young man was stabbed to death in broad daylight in east london yesterday. he is the 16th person stabbed to death in london this year. last month in birmingham, three teenagers died in the space of 12 days. the killings have prompted warnings of a "national emergency" and sparked intense scrutiny of cuts police numbers. the labour mayor of london and eight police and crime commissioners from england and wales have warned that the system for dealing with young people who are excluded from school is contributing to the problem. the letter highlighted that in two of the country's worst spots for knife crime — london and the west midlands — permanent exclusions have risen by 62% and 40% since 2013—14. mayor of london, sadiq khan, says theresa may needs to do more to "get on top" of the problem. there is evidence in the past, where the prime minister has said, "listen, let's get our heads together. "let's meet regularly and get on top of this."

in 2002, when there was a massive increase in street crime, the previous prime minister tony blair chaired meetings. that is what sara thornton is talking about. that is not commissioners like lord stevens and previous police commissioners are talking about. in the past, we have solved this issue with the prime minister leading from the front. with the greatest respect, the home secretary boris johnson by himself cannot order the chancellor to give him more money. the home secretary cannot order the secretary of state to have a public health approach. the prime minister can. we can speak now to hussein hussein, who has worked in mainstream education and in pupil referral units. he now runs a mentoring and tutor company for vulnerable young people. geoff barton, who was a headteacher for 15 years and is now the general secretary of the association of school and college leaders. sarah jones, the labour mp and chair of the all party parliamentary group on knives.

geoff e inplain what off rolling s thatis geoff e inplain what off rolling s that is the issue the mayor of london and various police and crime commissioners are saying is a problem? -- explain. very pleased to do so. there is a lot of misinformation today, confuse, links being made. when a parent waved goodbye to their child today they will know they will have a very safe environment that child is in, because the school has a clear disciplinary policy which includes the ultimate sanction of saying if you continue to be behave in that way, you will be permanently excluded and there are checks and bala nces excluded and there are checks and balances so we know that permanent exclusion is one way you can resort to send o a message out that it is unacceptable behaviour. off rolling is when a chilled disappearing from the school roll. if a parents was to come to me and i was the head teacher and the parent said i want to home educate my child, then they would have to submit a letter to me and the governing body and i would

inform the local authority of that. the issue therefore is what happens to that child, what does home education mean, those vulnerable children as they often are, who is keeping an eye on them? this is an issue beyond the school gate. we have do everything we can within schools of course but after the exclusion other the off rolling, thatis exclusion other the off rolling, that is where the main issue is. right. so permanent exclusions and off rolling are different things but both are contributing to the knife crime problem in your view or not? no, probably not, and i say that not just from personal experience, i looked at a report from the ministry ofjustice which says it sees no direct link. ofsted has put out a statement saying the same thing. we need to be careful because mowatt pa rents need to be careful because mowatt parents will want their child to be ina parents will want their child to be in a school where there is a safe environment and one of the ways you make sure you a disciplined ethos is being having the sanction saying this child cannot continue. i know i would be challenged round that by a local authority and governors if

they felt i was making the wrong decision, the decision that child needs to go to a pupil referral unit ora needs to go to a pupil referral unit or a different school. let me ask, do you think there is a link?“ or a different school. let me ask, do you think there is a link? it is easy to say there is a link, you can look at the correlation but the kids who are excluded are very complex, if you look at the profile of a kid who is excluded they are likely to have grown up in the care of the state, four timeses to be living in poverty. seven times as likely to have learning difficulty and ten times more likely to have a mental health issue. they have pressures and these kids end up out of the. s what we have is a system of education that is failing most vulnerable learners but to say that is the cause of knife crime, it is a large link to crime as a whole but i can't say that is what is causing knife crime. sarah jones how do you

reacts to ofsted and people like geoff who say there is not a link?|j geoff who say there is not a link?” think hussein has it right. a lot of the kids that end up getting excluded have had significant problems in family life, in their past, they have issued that haven't been dealt w and, i think the point for me, is that of course you do some times have to exclude children, thatis some times have to exclude children, that is absolutely the right thing to do because for the safety of the other kids and their own safety and it might be better for them to be in a nurturing crew that might teach them ina a nurturing crew that might teach them in a better way. we have seen an increase in exclusion, sob there has been a 56% increase across the country over three years so are we saying, what are we saying about why that has happened? is it because we have loads more haven't racial children? is it buzz of the cuts to school funding, things like special

needs funding, struggling in schools and that provision isn't there. what is going on and how can we stop that? what we did in the all party parliamentary group is ask local authorities whether they had spaces in pupil referral you nits and across the country a third of local authorities don't have any places left in their pupil referral you nits, this is... pupils who excluded permanently go to pupil referrals. so if there is no space there, the local authority still has a duty to make sure they are educated so they scrabble round. these are the most vulnerable children. look at areas like norfolk and gloucester shire, exclusions are high but they are not knife crime hotspots. it is complex. the children's commissioner said if you are excluded you become vulnerable, even more so than before because you might fall through the net. there are cases if you end up

on the streets more than you would do because you are not in education, you are something a couple of hours a day, you might be more likely to be on streets, to get into trouble, more likely to feel also that the system doesn't really care about you and doesn't want you. that is what drives you into criminal activity or gang activity. i am sure you will be able to tell the audience there are brilliant pupil referral units, that really help turn kids' lives round. i wouldn't want the audience to think because a child is excluded and goes to a you nit that means thatis and goes to a you nit that means that is the end of their life.” wouldn't agree with that. there are some great units out there. the one challenge we know schools all round, there is a teacher crisis, so there are some units where it is dependent on the quality of staff, so if you are trying to get a teach forearm mainstream school you have to think about how difficult it is to get a

teacher who wants to work with these kids. there is lots of unknown. the one i worked at, i loved it, it was a pleasure to be there. let me ask you geoff barton, should head teachers be accountable for those pupils who are considered, excuse me, i will have to get some water, sorry, the cups are empty. should they be accountable for pupils who are off rolled. it is a good question. we are talking about a small number of students, that is a lowerfigure small number of students, that is a lower figure that small number of students, that is a lowerfigure that in small number of students, that is a lower figure that in 20062007. let us lower figure that in 20062007. let us keep perspective. what heads would say is of course, we want to make sure those young people are looked after. the month way we can do that is through earlier intervention, the student aged 11 or 12 is starting to show defiant bad behaviour, we could work differently with them in schools and we were doing that and what we are seeing is

a spike in ex collusions at the moment because the funding isn't there for those alternative forms of support earlier on which pre—empt you having to exclude a student later on, that is what we need to do to support them before we get to crisis. but should head teachers be accountable once —— once they are excluded? if a parent decides november a child out of my school in year eight when the child is round 1413, do they show up on my records or the school. that is not what i am saying, if parent decides to move their child that different from them being off rolled or excluded. that is off rolling, that, that counts by your criteria if the parent does that, all i am saying the point the child leaves the school, someone needs toe have responsibility for knowing where that child is and what is the quality for provision, as head teachers would would want to be pa rt head teachers would would want to be

part of that but it need to be a system which is about accountability which makes shoe the vulnerable children have the best quality. ok. thank you very much all of you. thanks for do get in touch with us throughout the morning — use the hashtag victorialive. if you re emailing and are happy for us to contact you, and maybe want to take part in the programme, please include your phone number in your message. if you text, you ll be charged at the standard network rate. police met survivors and relatives of people killed in the grenfell tower last night with unwelcome news. it will be the end of 2021 before criminal charges can be considered, some four years after the fire happened. the metropolitan police say they need to first consider the outcome of the public inquiry into the tragedy. relatives say it's extremely disheartening and extremely frustrating that their limbo will continue for years to come. 72 people were killed in the fire. let's speak now to natasha elcock.

natasha managed to escape the night of the fire with her daughter and partner and she is the chair of grenfell united, a group representing the bereaved and survivors from the grenfell tower fire. good morning. thank you for talking to us natasha. your reaction first of all. it is extremely frustrating and disheartening to receive that news last night. you know, for two—and—a—half years, nearly two yea rs two—and—a—half years, nearly two years sorry, we have been continuously lobbying government, the prime minister, in regards to the prime minister, in regards to the inquiry, so to hear that the police investigation can't even begin to bring charges until the inquiry has concluded is an absolute blow. you know, we have had to fight this far, you know, we have had to lobby the prime minister to get additional panel members which are still not in place. we have had to lobby the inquiry to move the venue

which is still not in place, for us we wa nt which is still not in place, for us we want the absolute best outcome from this, so the criminal investigation is important. but when you are investigation is important. but when you a re left investigation is important. but when you are left in limbo of not having any date for the inquiry itself about when it is due to start. natasha, sorry to interrupt. that is fine. do you accept the principle the inquiry has to leech its natural conclusion before, before the criminal side of things can take over. for us, we want absolutely everything uncovered. i mean for us we know what happened to us, looking from the outside in, we know what was at fault from that night, you know, for those of us that lived if that tower for many years and seen many fires before, we know that the materials that were nut in the

building weren't safe, and therefore, contributed to the deaths of 71 people that night. now, we have to take it's important that everything is uncovered and everything is uncovered and everything is uncovered and everything is out there in the open, so everything is out there in the open, so the criminal investigation can have the pest possible outcome. the biggest frustration is not so much the news that it, you know, the criminal investigation is relying on the inquiry or waiting for the inquiry to fin i it is more the uncertainty of when it is going to start for phase two. that is the biggest frustration this morn eing and had time to digest the news the police delivered. i can't say the inquiry will start in september, october, because at the moment, the way it is being delivered to us, i e—mailed the inquiry team on behalf of g re nfell

e—mailed the inquiry team on behalf of grenfell united, we are working with season, the recommendations won't be out until spring. string doesn't end to the end of may. we are looking at the end of may perfect we get interim recommendation, we are looking at autumn, that again is another three months, so for us, right now, we need some concrete dates as and when it will start. can i ask you to describe for people watching around the country, what being in limbo, when you have lost a loved one or your home, what that is like?” think for us as bereaved and survivor, we have spent 21 months fighting or lobbying or campaigning the process for change. you know, up and down the country today, there are numerous buildings, they still

have cladding, or, dangerous materials, wrapped round it so there is many families out there, that are living in fear. we are, we have as housing system that needs some form of regulator that will listen to residents concerns t you know, that is what we are campaigning for now, we wa nt is what we are campaigning for now, we want a regulator in place by the government, you know, you had the financial crisis many years ago, you had the food crisis a regulator was put in place, we are campaigning for a housing regulator to be put in place, the concerns that people are have are conheard a. as we sit here g re nfell have are conheard a. as we sit here grenfell could happen. happen. many people have woken up this morning, with great. they are alive because they are living in unsafe buildings, so they are living in unsafe buildings, so for us we will continue to do everything innous power and everything, every fight we have,

along with the justice fight we have enensure people are safe in their home, we owe to it the british public to got go through the pain, we owe it to them to ensure their voices are heard. thank you so much. r kelly has been taken into custody in chicago, after failing to pay child support to his former wife. it comes hours after the singer gave an extraordinary interview, tearfully and angrily denying allegations of sexual abuse. this snapshot from an explosive moment of that interview has gone viral — with r kelly standing over the cbs host gayle king, who remains seated with a neutral expression on herface. our entertainment reporter chi chi izundu has been following the story and joins me now. he was due to appear for not paying his child support. he said he could

pay £40,000. he owed 161,000 thrver to his ex—wife and children, the judge said i am not accepting $60,000 i want the lot. he has been held in custody. his attorney said his finances are a mess, he couldn't pay the bailfor his finances are a mess, he couldn't pay the bail for the last time he was injail when he was pay the bail for the last time he was in jail when he was arrested pay the bail for the last time he was injail when he was arrested on ten charges of aggravated sexual assault, so he is now sitting in jail, his lawyer says he is going to try and raise the money. r kelly is backin try and raise the money. r kelly is back in court on 13th march. ok. thank you. lots of things can be tricky if you're visually impaired, but going shopping for your wedding perhaps shouldn't be one of them. but when alex pepper was doing just that with his fiance last weekend. his day was made unnecessarily difficult. he was stopped by a security guard at the bluewater shopping centre in kent and told to leave as dogs

were not allowed. the security guard approached and said we needed to leave because they had a no dogs policy, river wasn't allowed. so we calmly explained he is an assistance dog, i am registered blind, he is my guide dog, he won't listen. he wouldn't talk to me at all, wouldn't acknowledge i was there, and he would only talk to my partner, we we re would only talk to my partner, we were trying to explain, i offered him the opportunity to use a phone or use my phone to google it, i said you should know, if you don't, you don't, have a look, it is the law. he wouldn't listen. we have a bit of footage that was taken at the time you were asked to leave. we will play this for the audience now. you know they are allowed entry? i... i can't believe you followed us. he is

saying people with a guide dog are not allowed in here. thanks very much everyone. so how do you react when this happens to you? shocked in all honesty, because it throws think backin all honesty, because it throws think back in this day and age, someone who is a security guard who should know these things can just, you know, be that ignorant and unaware. however, not so shocked because u nfortu nately however, not so shocked because unfortunately these things aren't uncommon. for me, i should unfortunately these things aren't uncommon. for me, ishould mention is is an isolated incident for me at blue water, i have been there before, but things have happened to me before and i know it happens to others with sight loss. blue water have apologised and given us a statement.

we have apologised for this errors it should never have happened. with redisappointed and we have recommunicated our policy to all members of the security team, and we will look at training and briefings to prevent this from happening again. are you satisfied with that? yes, i think it is fair to say, they have been really good, in that i complained via the website on the monday, they contacted me within the hour by phone and the woman i spoke to, a lady called debbie who sounded very embarrassed and upset this happened. she explained she thought things like this were common—sense and i, her claim all theirstaff things like this were common—sense and i, her claim all their staff go through the training, but she said they shouldn't assume that people remember all the time, perhaps they should do refresher courses which i believe they have said they will do. this idea that 6% of society don't or people have little understanding of the kind of challenges you face, and that 60% of people who are

visually impaired or blind feel socially isolated, what can the rest of us do? one thing that is good to mention, it is ok to ask. if you see someone mention, it is ok to ask. if you see someone who has sight loss, just ask, it's ok. you mean to say can i help you? can i help you, are you 0k? help you? can i help you, are you ok? we are not blind people, we are people who are blind. we are people who can't see properly. it is ok to ask us, have a chat, there is no wrong in that at all. bbc news room live is next. have a further north and west it has been

quite soggy this morning in north wales, scotland and northern ireland. this rain is gradually moving south and east. there will be brighter skies in the north—west, but really a windy day for many, those gusts of 45 to 50mph, perhaps a bit more than that, in exposure and it is a chillier day for england and it is a chillier day for england and wales, the temperatures coming down to seven to 11 degrees, through tonight, that rain will continue to clear away, the winds will become lighter, and with lengthy clear skies, it is going to turn chilly, in fact there will be a widespread frost in northern parts. there will be a bright start to friday. plenty of sunshine, frost round, but the cloud increasing quickly with that rain then moving into western areas. bye.

you're watching bbc newsroom live, it's11am and these are the main stories this morning: the eu demands fresh proposals from the uk to break the brexit impasse — as chancellor phillip hammond warns tory brexiteers to vote for the theresa may's deal or face a brexit delay. if the prime minister's deal does not get through on tuesday, then it is likely that the house of commons will vote to extend the article 50 procedure. the equality and human rights can commission is considering taking action against the labour party of complaints of anti—semitism. another knife death in london comes amid warnings over the links between school exclusions and stabbings. officers investigating the grenfell tower fire in london say criminal charges will not be brought for at least two years.